Both Ensler's Vagina Monologues and Diderot's Indiscreet Jewels are meant to be comedic, and deal with the same subject matter. However the Vagina monologues is meant to be more informative on the subject; it tries to bring a subject that has been in the dark in to the light. This work wants people to know it is okay to talk about these things; the more inform people are and call body parts by their proper name the better. Diderot’s Indiscreet Jewels is silly and meant to arouse the thoughts of the reader while exploring the subject. People at the time probably did not take away much after reading it since the subject itself was considered to be vulgar. The women in the story would have been probably deemed as prostitutes. Diderot probably made the characters in the story foreign in order to make the subject/story more acceptable.

The gender of each writer influences the text of each of the writing. They invite different types of reader. Diderot’s is more inviting to men while the Vagina Monologue is more inviting to women. Diderot’s is more about male fantasies. He is more playful with his words. He down plays the situation by making things in a way more child like. Parents might tell a child their genitals are called jewels. He does not use actual terminology. Ensler on the other hand wants people to use the correct terminology.

These two works would probably not be acceptable in other centuries and cultures because of the subject matter. Sexuality, especially when concerning women's sexuality has always been a taboo since the beginning of time. Most people do not like to talk about this subject. Most of the changes in the way people view this subject did not occurred until the 20th century. That is a long time if one thinks about how long human have been around. The sexual revolution that occurred around the 1960s and 1970s changed many previous notions people had before. During this time birth control pills were accepted as a contraceptive, people began to experiment, and write books on the subject. Although we have made progress since then it is still a sensitive subject. Even though we are in the 21st century, a society that prides itself in being modern and more knowledgeable than past centuries, talking about a woman’s genitals still makes a lot of people uncomfortable. I remember when the play on the Vagina Monologues started playing a few years ago some people were very offended by it and it caused a lot of controversies while others found the play to be very informative; it is meant to change the viewers perspective about the situation and make them think about a subject not often talked about openly. However, if any of the texts were to be accepted it would be Diderot's. His work is based on fiction, and is mostly aimed at a male reader while the Vagina Monologues is non fiction.

On "The Indiscreet Jewels", "Vagina Monologues" and "Penis Monologues"

“The Indiscreet Jewels” by Denis Diderot is a novel that portrays Louis XV as a sultan who owns a magic ring that makes women's genital or jewel talk. It's a novel of ideas in which “jewels” function as the vehicle of philosophy to enlighten society.
Louis XV was king of France between 1715 and 1774, and it was well-known for having various mistresses and was frequently influenced by them. It's said that he had ninety illegitimate children, product of all his sexual encounters with his mistresses. Louis XV's poor leadership and lack of reforms contributed to the crisis that led to the French Revolution in 1789.
“The Indiscreet Jewels” was written as a satire to the king and his womanizer powers. Diderot is most remembered as being the editor and one of the main contributors of “The Encyclopedia”. What started as a merely translation of “The Chambers Cyclopedia”, ended up being an open door to the “world of knowledge”; where not only technology articles, but also ethic,philosophic as well as aesthetic topics can be found. This type of writing was seen as an attack to the Catholic Church, whose norms still ruled the society on that time, because writings like this would open the eyes of the society and create many questions and doubts. This would negatively affect not only the Catholic Church but also the Crown since an ignorant society is much easier to rule.
As Diderot tries to reveal the secrets about the “knowledge world” in “The Encyclopedia”, in “The Indiscreet Jewels”, he tries to do the same; to expose to the general public the more deepest secrets of a woman's feelings and thoughts about desire and sexuality; topics that were taboo in Diderot's years. I think that more than being a satire about the King of France, the real purpose of this novel is to make out of a topic like sexuality something more open to discussion for the people. But a “Vagina Monologue” couldn't be created in that time, so Diderot had to find ways to present his novels to the public without being exposed to sanctions and even jail time for his open mind. Here is were “The Indiscreet Jewels” and “Vagina Monologues” share their first similitude. Although at first instance, both could be seen as mere satires, they have a hidden purpose which is to make of a topic-the women's genitalia-a more open topic of discussion. Both “The Indiscreet Jewels” and “Vagina Monologues” are written differently to target differently public too; “Vagina Monologues” is a play written in 1996; “The indiscreet Jewels” is a novel written in 1748. “Vagina Monologues” seems to be more directed to the female public, whereas “The Indiscreet Jewel” to the general public. “Vagina Monologues” uses the monologues to inform women about their own sexuality, and through knowledge, empower them and remove them from the world of hypocrisy and taboo were “talking about sexuality, intercourse, masturbation, orgasm” have been hidden in.
In “Vagina Monologues” ”every monologue somehow relates to the vagina, be it through sex, love, rape, menstruation, mutilation, masturbation, birth, orgasm, the variety of names for the vagina, or simply as a physical aspect of the body. A recurring theme throughout the piece is the vagina as a tool of female empowerment, and the ultimate embodiment of individuality” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Vagina_Monologues). “Vagina Monologues” was a boom when the first play open in New York, because even though we are in the 21 Century, talking about women's intimate parts appears to be counterproductive and improper for some. Since the first play back in 1996, “Vagina Monologues” have developed to V-Day, “a global movement to stop violence against women and girls (...) through a series of events that generates broader attention for the fight to stop violence against women and girls, including rape, battery, incest, female genital mutilation (FGM) and sexual slavery” (http://newsite.vday.org/about/more-about). On the other hand, “The indiscreet Jewels” remains as one of the most scandalous, attractive and provocative works of Diderot.

Although “Penis Monologues” is an enjoyable reading, I think his purpose differs from that one of “Vagina Monologues”. It's presented, once again, as satire, but contrary to “Vagina Monologues”, it doesn't develop further than that. I don't see any valid information, knowledge that can lead men to better know their bodies or give them more confidence to openly discuss man sexuality with others. It's just a series of jokes about intercourse, or, in the words of Peace “When privates meet”, circumcision and masturbation. Maybe it is presented this way because sexual taboo is not that much about men genitalia but rather women's. After all, men seem to understand something better when is introduced to them as a joke. :)


Internet Sources used:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761567404/louis_xv.html
http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/diderotbio.html
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Les_bijoux_indiscrets)

Past or present, the issues are the same!

Historical writings seem to have two sides to them. They show us a clear picture of the past and what its societal norms used to be, and they also mirror our current culture and mores. Most of the time it is amazing when we realise that issues then are much the issues now. Whereas interpretations are different from one time period to the next, they still cause people to think about humans and how we function. This is what my impression was, when I read the two excerpts, the "Vagina Monologues" by Ensler and the "Penis Monologues" by Peace.
It is interesting to show that womens' anatomy is not talked about in our current society, as much as mens', as per these writings. In Diderot's "Indiscreet Jewels" two issues were brought forth. One, that whether women were discreet or not, about having multiple sexual partners, they never openly told anyone about them. Also that their "jewels" were not mentioned in society. Putting the two untalked-about issues together in the idea that the woman's vagina talked about that woman's lovers was a very satirical look at society's conventions. It ridiculed the idea of hidden adolatry and hypocracy. It fits in with the background of Diderot being a reformer and philosophe in eighteenth century France.
Contemporary writings such as the two monologues in the excerpt seem less sarcastic or satirical and more funny and open. They serve the same purpose to show that women's anatomies are not talked about openly as compared to mens'. Perhaps this shows a side of society that wants to keep the female body as a hidden, mystical being to pique the curiosity of men. Ensler writes "I guess it is that if we talk about something then we demystify it". That seems to be very true of the whole idea behind why men's anatomies are discussed more openly. Peace had a hilarious outlook on men's circumcision and their penises. He clearly talked about how good it felt for men to have an erection even if societal norms forbade that in public. He also mentioned how terrifying it was for a man to think of circumcision being performed on him. Both monologues can be used by contemporary families to teach their children about their respective anatomies and how to be comfortable with biological changes that occur over their lifespan.
Overall the two excerpts offered interesting viewpoints on male and female bodies as discussed in society.

Vagina and penis monologue takes on the talking jewels

After reading the two monologues, I felt that the penis had to be more sickening to the reader’s mind as oppose to the female vagina. You know, it’s embarrassing for people to walk around the streets with female being nude or men showing their plastic penis hanging down. In the world today, most people would feel uncomfortable seeing these images as opposed to then. In those early days, sex was an important issue in people’s life. Many families had sex as well as in those early pornography films.Women dressed naked show show their appreciation and beauty about life. People craved for sexuality and it's for their own enjoyment.

In Denis Diderot, the indiscreet jewels, the passage tends to be more like an allegorical feel where jewels can talk by using some sort of a magical jewel owned by the sultan Mangogul of the Congo.This work was mostly in a form of entertainment and encourage people how women would feel after wearing the jewels. Diderot tends to be magical and relaxing by not using dirty words like female’s vagina or male’s penis or everything that is dirty. I think he is much cleaner in his way of writing. As a result, I think the vagina and penis monologue sex was to entertain people and how effective it would get as the years progress. The vagina monologue was so popular that it was eventually on Off-Broadway. Eve Ensler performed it on stage.

Ensler also wrote a piece called “celebrate the vagina” and the purpose was to stop the violence against women. She thinks that many men are attracted to the women’s vagina cause it sexy and cheesy. She wrote this to finally stop the abuse of men over women. We don’t want to see men treating women as been some sort of an illness way. We want women to have their own spare time. Ensler’s writing does show some satirical meanings.

I pretty much enjoyed reading the two passages and I felt the penis or the vagina had the most interest toward me. The Diderot was also worth reading and the jewels that were able to talk were funny like in an allegorical scene where animals could eventually talk to each other. Denis Diderot had a clean writing style as opposed to the vagina or penis. The vagina or the penis showed more intuitions and more history about it as opposed to Diderot’s writing. Overall, I enjoyed all the readings by these authors.

I really enjoyed reading both texts. I would say that The Indiscreet Jewels was written as entertainment, showing the desire of every man know the truth about the women sex life and the desire of women to hide that from the man. The Vagina Monologues, on the other hand, is written as satire to correct social ills. The author points that most of us don’t know about some of our organs until the certain age when functions and names of all other organs are already known. It is depends on the family where you grew up, if they openly can talk about our sex differences and name them accordingly.
Both texts are acceptable for both male and female audience of any age and status. Both authors discuss the same object, but they use different words. The 18th century male philosopher uses the word “jewel” referring to vagina. At that time such topics were closed for people, and they gave special names for their genitals. While the 20th century woman writer names vagina by its name. In the play by Eve Ensler, vagina talks: “Feed me, think again. I want more, please. Where is Brian? – remember me?” This was example like the 20th century vagina would talk. The 18th century “jewel” would say: “a husband must be an important guest, judging from the precautions taken to receive him.” The use of vocabulary is less specific. I feel that the Vagina Monologue would not be acceptable in the time when the Indiscreet Jewels was written as well as in the first part of the 20th century. People at that time were not open to talk about genitals and name them appropriately. However it would be useful nowadays and in the future for mothers should talk more openly with their daughters about their genitals. The Indiscreet Jewels would be acceptable at any period of time and cultures as the use of vocabulary less specific and it is written as an entertainment novel.

I really enjoyed the readings, especially Ensler’s Vagina Monologues. I think they are more natural and topical than Diderot’s reading. People from all generations liked themes about something related to sex. No wonder, why this off-Broadway play ‘’The Vagina Monologues’’ was so popular in New York some years ago. We live in a world that promotes the performance of that kind of issues.
It seems like these readings have not only entertaining and satiric origin but they are also are informative. It is important social agenda and we can see how hard is to be a woman. It also shows how different man and woman are in their origins, especially towards life.
Even though both readings raise similar issues, they look very different because they were written a century apart and by different genders. It’s not just a language usage but also perceptions. Comparing to Ensler, Diderot doesn’t use slang and words like ‘’vagina’’ and ‘’penis’’ because it was very improper and embarrassing at the time. Time changed the ways to express the issues, however they have remained till now.

I guess the purpose of Ensler’s “Vagina monologues” is to change common for almost all modern societies belief that open discussion of female genitalia is something inappropriate. I agree with the author that taboo on this issue creates “great burden” for women. I also believe that avoidance to openly discus this issue is compensated by dirty jokes and ignorance. However, I think that things are getting better and the information about this delicate issue is more accessible now due to internet. I am not talking about pornography that comprises more than a half of all internet resources, but rather truthful and serious information about genitals which is also easily accessible. Comparing Eisler’s monologue to Peace’s one, I would say the “Penis monologue” serves satirical rather than informative purpose. I did liked some points in the monologue because they were really funny, however I could not agree on some points the author made. For example, I do not see such a big necessity in discussing the opposite sex. It was a great point in the monologue when “vaginas and penises meet out in the open to demystify each other…“ But do we really need it? I mean is the open discussion more effective way to demystify the opposite sex than the old proven method to do it?
I can not agree about circumcision too. It was very funny and talented way the author presented the issue. However, I guess the entire development of the subject and its conclusion was absolutely wrong. There is no “come near me with a knife- prepare to die” approach out there, even not close. It is entirely the author’s imagination, in real life circumcision is a pretty wide spread and routine procedure

Vagina's and Penis's Cum together!!!

I enjoyed all 3 readings, especially the monologues done by Stephen Peace. It always interests me to hear what how guys feel and what they have to say about vaginas. When its spoken about playfully and in a slangish way its not as embarrassing but if you would ask either man or woman about it in a serious conversation, everyone is suddenly shy and not as responsive. What was really funny was when he talks about men grabbing their "things" in the street because I always notice when guys do that and sometimes they dont even try to hide it. It always happens the same way, they walk down the street and look straight ahead as to not cause any attention to their "thing", then they either move it around or scratch it. Guys are just animals. Im just writing about and it and still cant even write the word penis without having to refer to it as "thing". In my house vagina was called popola and penis was bing bing and in most families I bet they had their own set of nicknames just as I and Ensler did. The text related in one way for certain and that was the uncomfortableness of saying vagina and penis. People feel more comfortable saying excuse my language "Pussy" and "Dick", its so weird but as you can see from Diderot's monologue which was written in the 18th century all the way to Ensler's monologue that speaking of the vagina is just uncomfortable. The text also relate when speaking about woman not knowing as much about vaginas as men, both Ensler and Peace say the same thing. That just goes to show how much its not spoken about. I feel that they do invite the same type of readers because although people dont want to say the words aloud they are definitely thinking about it and interested in seeing what other people think about it.

I believe that both texts are written for the entertaining purpose as well as to evoke response since people are usually unwilling to discuss the topics raised in the readings. Due to resemblance of the main idea I would assume that "Vagina Monologue" and "Penis Monologue" invite the same "type of reader" and almost any type of reader since the topics discussed concern pretty much any of us.
Worth mentioning that "Vagina Monologue" is easier perceived rather that "Penis Monologue" due to a pinch of aggressiveness involved in the former. However such difference is not accidental. Women are tend to be less hostile than men in real life, therefore such dissimilarity is sensed in both texts.
I think these readings could be found entertaining in earlier centuries, because of the issues discussed during those times, maybe just not as openly as now. For example, in "The Indiscreet Jewels" Denis Diderot writes about the same topic as Eve Ensler did. It just Diderot uses more flowery terms to express himself. Taking all said above into consideration, these two texts could be universal since they are both pretty simple and evoke people to discuss about the things they are interested in, but still ashamed to talk about.

Let's Talk About What We're Not Supposed to Really Talk About...

Though both these texts talk about Vaginas and Penises, they approach the subject matter in totally different ways. In the Vagina Monologues, Ensler is trying to empower the female by saying it’s okay to be proud of your Vagina. It’s not something that has to be discussed behind closed doors and it’s okay to talk about your Vagina and what you do with it. I can see why the monologues would not be accepted in certain places and cultures because even in this day and age, women are taught to be proper and “quiet” in some cultures.
In Diderot’s Indiscreet Jewels, I think it sends a different message. Alcina lies to the emir about having an affair with his squire and the emir finds out the truth from Alcina’s “Jewel.” It’s amusing because this was written such a long time ago and Diderot did not use the word Vagina and I can assume it was not proper to blurt out such a word in those days. I think this story teaches you not to be so open about your Jewels and that you should be embarrassed at the mention of it.
In both of these writings the Vagina speaks. In the Monologues, Ensler talks about what the Vagina might say if it were to speak to you and Diderot uses the woman’s Jewel to tell the truth of Alcina’s behavior. I find both the Monologues and Indiscreet Jewels very amusing and I think both these writings reflect the times that they were written . Diderot writes a more discreet and censored story while Ensler’s Monologues are very blatant and does not use words such as “Jewels.” I think Ensler would cringe at Diderot’s mention of a woman’s jewels while Diderot may not be able to sit through the Vagina Monologues.

It's time for women (and men) to be open about sex more !

I think both Ensler's Vagina Monologues and Diderot's Indiscreet Jewels are written as entertainment and satire to correct social ills. They entertain the readers with an unexpected topic of talking vagina but something everyone want to know. Also, both readings criticize the unopened society to talking about women’s sex activities or their genitals. Although men must have wanted to know what women think about their sex activities and genitals, I cannot doubt there must have been men’s pressure on women being chaste. The Vagina Monologues are written to break the restriction of men and to free women to talk about the genitals. I believe the Vagina Monologues has given a lot of chances to women to talk about it. On the other hand, the Indiscreet Jewels describes the men’s contradiction toward women’s openness toward their sex issues and shows the reality of their sex activities, but I think Diderot did not try to change this situation eagerly because even if women’s jewels talk about their adventures, women themselves do not and will not feel comfortable to talk about it. In other words, women are still under control of men about the topic. This is also the influence of the author’s gender as a man. In terms of correcting social ills, however, Diderot also tried to criticize the ruined society reigned by the King of France at that time, Louis XV. As the sultan, Mongogul, in the Indiscreet Jewels is only interested in “jewels’ amorous adventures,” Louis XV had a few interest in government and were devoted to his lovers, Madame de Pompadour and the Comtesse du Barry. Eventually, his failures of ruling the country contributed to lead the French Revolution. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/louis_xv.shtml)

I think the Indiscreet Jewels are more acceptable to other countries and cultures than the Vagina Monologues. The Indiscreet Jewels is written as novel and uses metaphor to describe women’s genitals, so it is much easier for the readers to read it, especially in public. By contrast, although the Vagina Monologues is written as monologue and is not played by a man and a woman in the play to describe a sex activity, it must be hard for some of the countries and cultures to accept the word, vagina. But in respect of usefulness, the Vagina Monologues is more useful to the contemporary world. As a lot of American women have been influenced by it and have become much more open to sex conversation and have gained pride of having the vagina, the Vagina Monologues has great potential to change the view of women in other countries and cultures toward their genitals.

when was the last time you said Vagina!!

The two texts are similar in the sense they both discuss the same topic, however, from totally different perspectives. Both share the belief that there is so much that goes inside a woman’s mind , which she tend to keep to herself or learns to avoid.
The indiscreet Jewels , by Denis Diderot ,addresses a general audience who is looking for entertainment ,whereas, Excerpt Ensler's Vagina Monologue, by Eve Ensler, is more informative , seems to be addressing it to avant-garde women . She uses a lot of satire as means to correct social ills.
Denis doesn’t include his opinion in his writing as much as Eve does. Being women, Eve seems to be more comfortable talking about the subject especially that she’s more in tune to it than Denis is.
When it comes to spreading awareness ,Eve does a better job advising women in her own way to step up and take a stand , whereas Denis ends his story by the husband leaving the room the moment he hear his wife’s jewels speak. .

Both Vagina Monologues by Ensler and Indiscreet Jewels by Diderot address the same theme of exposing female genitalia. However, the fact that they were written two centuries apart significantly impacts the style and the language of the texts. Furthermore, the gender of the writers comes into play as well.
Vagina Monologues is written as a play performed by one actor. It is considered controversial even for the twentieth century. The author emphasizes that little education is given to the girls about their bodies either in school or by their mothers. Eve Ensler points out that people have “popular belief that men … knew more about women’s bodies than women did”. By these monologues she is trying to educate public about existing female problems in our society. She stresses that the reason girls are “unprotected against the shaming words and dirty jokes of the school yard” is because people feel very uncomfortable talking about the subject. By speaking openly about vagina Ensler invites others to follow her and not to be ashamed of talking to others about it. Vagina Monologues target a wide range of audience, male and female, teens and grown-ups.
Unlike Vagina Monologues, Indiscreet Jewels is written by a man in a form of a novel. Moreover, it was published anonymously which reinforces the shameful matter of the subject in the 18th century. In his novel Diderot expressed the desire of every man to know about women’s “amorous adventures past and present”. And he gives the answer to that too: “this has never been and never shall be”. The novel is written mostly for entertainment of men, backing up their beliefs of female indecent behaviors and lies. You can feel men’s point of view even in the words of the Alcina’s vagina itself.
Both Diderot and Ensler use talking vagina as their main theme. However, while Diderot’s “jewel” only talks about its “adventures”, Ensler shows much more angles to the story, such as sex, relationships, and violence against women. The use of language differs greatly as well. Ensler is more straightforward in her piece using such words as “vagina’, “clitoris”, and vagina’s expressions like “slow down – stay home”, “yum, yum – let’s play”, etc. Diderot, on the other hand, uses “jewels” and “amorous adventures” instead of “vagina” and “sex”, and expressions like “precautions taken to receive a husband” or “preparations”. I think, Diderot’s language is more universal and can be accepted in different centuries and countries, whereas Ensler’s Monologues is limited to a specific culture at a specific period of time. Even though it raised a lot of eyebrows even in democratic America, it was still accepted. However, I can’t imagine the reaction at the time it would produce in other countries, such as post-Soviet Union, for example.

P.S. Penis Monologues is a mere response from men to Vagina Monologues, which only emphasizes the importance of the latter. Stephen Peace criticizes Ensler saying that "if we talk about something then we demystify it". The piece is written in an ironic tone, and even though it raises a question about circumcision, it doesn't have the same effect as the Vagina's Monologues.

The Big Taboo

The Vagina and Penis monologues serve the same purpose of drawing attention to the fact that both genders are uncomfortable speaking about their own genitalia. The Vagina Monologues point seems to find excuses why the parents did not teach girls about their organs. On the other hand, the Penis Monologues were quite hilarious and was for humor more than resentment. The female version expressed anger that the girl was teased by others and had no idea what the other children were saying about her. The male version agrees with the female version as it is stated that “We hear penis or dick a lot more than we hear vagina.” I think that both monologues invite the same type of reader even though the tone of each story is completely different. In reference to style, the female version uses more technical vocabulary for describing genitals. The male version just outright says it repeatedly and uses an array of puns to add to the comedy. The gender affects the type of work because women tend to be more secretive about their privates than men. Men constantly talk about their penis and are more open than women. I think that the female text would be useful in an older time period so it encourages mothers to teach their daughters about their body. The male version would be more acceptable in modern times for a younger audience because the jokes use modern slang, such as “head”, to convey certain points.

I think both readings address pretty much same issues and I think they serve same purpose as entertainment and at the same time satire to correct social ills. There are countries in Africa who still practice not only circumcision of young man but circumcision of young women too. Also I found the first reading “Vagina Monologues” pretty much interesting where I can relate my own experience with this reading. My background is Albanian and in my culture or in my family there is no such a thing of having a conversation about sex especially females. And to be honest I don’t agree with this and I think it’s very appropriate to discuss and talk about sex issues with your parents. Especially, we live in a country and culture where we are exposed to sex. The first reading invites both female and male and the second reading invites only male and I don’t think any guy should have such a ring because if a guy does have such a ring then girls too should have one right??..
I think these texts would be useful to other cultures because it teaches them a lesson that it’s ok to have a conversation about sex with your parents. Well the readings have definitely different styles one of them is a monologue and the other one is a novel. The first reading was easier to understand and the second reading of Diderot had more figurative language.

The Forbidden Zone

These two texts to me serve a purpose that is lighthearted, though they may warm people to discussing genitals more openly, their intention was for entertainment.
They defenitely invite different readers, and Diredot's illicits purely male fantasies in my opinion.
Ya, I guess the authors share the same opinion that alot of curiosity is being left unsatisfied.
Stylistically, one you can definitely see is a monologue. Otherwise, they are both pretty simple and funny.
Diredot's again is all about a male ego fantasy of pleasing women and endowment.
These would definitely not be acceptable in many other times and cultures. But probably are better off being accepted. In Africa, people don't talk about sex at all and come on nobody is stupid. People there still have it probably more than we do, but in heated passion ignore things like contraception. Furthermore, some tribes believe that sleeping with virgins and can cure the diseases they get or cut the clitorises off teenage girls. I guess we also circumsize and some studies have shown it is a pointless practice. I'm on a rant here but yes...People should be free to talk more about sex than has historically been the case.
Ya, Diredot's is kind of limited to men. I could see a lot of women who would not get a kick out of that, and would love to have such a ring. Both these stories again are limited obviously to more modern times.
-jeffrey